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Karl,
My four cents (adjusted for inflation)...
Options (a) and (c) are a no-go in my book. Sure it resolves the
unrealistic play of removing the border garrisons, but it doesn't allow the
Soviets to react in any way prior to the German attack.
Option (b) is the way I'd like to see it go with no adjustment to the Total
War trigger. Yes, the German player can refuse to take three personnel
centers and, yes, that would cause great difficulty for the Soviet player.
But the price to the Soviet player must be substantial or the Soviet will
attack every game in '39 or '40.
SPI put the Limited War feature in so the Soviet player could do something
in extreme cases. The threat of Limited War was usually sufficient to keep
the German player in line. If the Soviet player actually does go to limited
war, it will destroy the German time table. So the German player needs to
take as much advantage as possible to make up for lost time, lost units, and
lost production. Gaming the three centers and fighting a
less-than-total-war Soviet enemy helps balance the game if it goes that
direction. I see no problem with the original Limited War rules - they can
be just as deadly to both sides.
In any case, thank you, Karl, for even considering this.
Jim
> From: cwie <cwie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:34:00 +1000
> To: Computer War In Europe <warineur@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Limited War
>
> drew,
>
> Have read the proposed "revamped Limited War" article before -it's linked
> from the WiE page at consimworld.
>
> Just a few quick comments :
>
> * It's probably quite good at resolving some of the weakness in the SPI rule
>
> * I have no great confidence that it would be widely accepted by many who
> ask for "Limited War" to be added to WiE-WE
>
> * It has no chance of being added to WiE-WE any time soon, since it
> specifically encourages "Soviet versus unaligned-neutral" conflict.
>
> Which brings me back to the immediate issue. In the short term, do I :
>
> (a) Leave WiE-WE as is - no Limited War support, rely upon "Gentlemen's
> agreement" to prevent the Axis from removing too many divisions from the
> East during '39/'40
>
> (b) Add the minimum Limited War support - allow the Soviets to attack the
> Germans in '39/'40. Possibly rework the 'Total War' trigger conditions to
> limit the Axis scope for 'gamey' tactics.
>
> (c) Add an entirely new option to prevent the Axis from abandoning the East
> front in '39/'40 (that is, require the Axis to keep 'x' divisions in East
> Poland hroughout '39 and '40)
>
> I'm suggesting that (b) and (c) are feasible as short term goals from a
> codong point of view. But I see little point in doing the work if people
> either won't use the option, or still feel it "misses the point".
>
> Karl.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "drew" <drewkirste@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Carl Rupp" <carlaugustruppsr@xxxxxxx>
> Cc: "war" <warineur@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Limited War
>
>
>
> draft new limited war rules for war in europe (v1.3, draft 1, dec 1996}
> sorce: kansas city group (neil k. hall et al), dec 1981
>
> as now written, for the soviet union to go to limited war is paramont to
> conceding the game, therefore 'limited war' needs to be redefined and
> re-ruled.
>
> --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Carl Rupp <carlaugustruppsr@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> From: Carl Rupp <carlaugustruppsr@xxxxxxx>
>> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Limited War
>> To: "cwie" <cwie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Cc: "'Computer War In Europe'" <warineur@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 1:02 PM
>> I am all for it. Should address some
>> of the concerns, and yet programmable.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> cwie wrote:
>>> The essence of what the BWIE rules say about "Limited
>> War"...
>>>
>>> If the Axis have not yet attacked Russia then :
>>>
>>> 1. The Russian can attack Germany
>>>
>>> 2. The Russian can attack the Allies
>>>
>>> 3. The Russian can attack neutrals (ie, Turkey)
>>>
>>> 4. Can return to peace from Limited War if the Axis
>> and Allied players both agree the allow it
>>>
>>> 5. Can (in theory) move between Peace and Limited War
>> more than once
>>>
>>> 6. Limited war with Germany becomes 'Total War' only
>> if the German captures 3 Soviet Personnel Centers
>>>
>>> By far the main reason put forward over the past 5
>> years for wanting Limited War implemented is "to keep the
>> Germans honest" by allowing Russia to attack Germany if the
>> Germans weaken the East front too much. This is
>> essentially point 1 listed above. This is actually not
>> too diffcult to implement in the current code
>>>
>>> Point 2, Russia V Allies, is a major change to the
>> current code for WiE-WE. This is a long way from being
>> implemented, and will require changes in many structures and
>> systems.
>>>
>>> Point 3, Russia V Neutrals, is an even bigger
>> change. In the BWiE ruels,a neutral attacked by Russia
>> is 'controlled' by teh Axis or Allied player (ie, that
>> player moves the units), but the country is not a part of
>> the Axis or Alied alliances. There is no provision in
>> the code for countries to be 'at war' yet not be part of the
>> 3 main alliances. So this is another serious rewrite
>> of the code.
>>>
>>> The point of all this? That a full
>> implementation of the BWiE limited War rules is difficult,
>> and along way off.
>>>
>>> However, I can implement points 1 and 6 in a fairly
>> short period of time. Is this worth doing? If I added
>> this form of limited Limited War, a peaceful Russia would be
>> able to DoW Germany, or adjacent neutral countries such as
>> Rumania (the attacked neutral would immediately join the
>> Axis alliance), and conduct Limited War production.
>> Once initiated, Limited War would continue until the Axis
>> capture 3 PCs.
>>>
>>> Worth implementing?
>>>
>>> Karl.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
>
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