> "oriel36" <geraldkelleher@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > OG wrote:
> >> Oh don't be so bloody pompous .
> >> Yes, it is possible _in theory_ to determine the orbital motion from
> >> the
> >> observed movement of the planets (and it took the determination and
> >> genius
> >> of Kepler to perform the task for Mars and Earth on the basis of Tycho's
> >> measurements. It also took the best part of his professional life to come
> >> up
> >> with a handful of 'rules of thumb' regarding orbital motion) .
> >> The trouble with wishing to do it _in theory_ is that until Newton there
> >> was
> >> no _theory_.
> > Who gives a damn about 'theories' or how you choose to judge Copernicus
> > or Kepler,the Newtonian view of retrogrades and how they are resolved
> > is incorrect,damaging and are not supported by the careful work of the
> > heliocentric astronomers and more importantly,by contemporary imaging
> > of plotted positions and time lapse motion .
> Once more you resort to bluff and bluster to hide the fact that you cannot
> justify your assertion that Newton's method is incorrect. If you can't
> support your argument you should accept it and shut up.
Along with Kepler ,Galileo and the other early heliocentric
astronomers,I can afiirm the Copernican reasoning that planetary
motions are seen directly from an orbitally moving Earth.Here is direct
observations of that affirmation -
Whether you personally care to follow Newton's false and
counter-productive view of what retrogrades are and how they are is
entirely your own business but unfortunately,and like so many
others,influence children in an adverse way.
> >> Newton's genius allowed him to change the paradigm so that orbital motion
> >> was expressed in terms of position in relation to the Sun which gave the
> >> 'explanation' for Kepler's 3 laws. The proof of the power of Newton's
> >> position is that Kepler's 3 laws all emerged from Newton's 1 law.
> > Newton was stupid astronomically but cunning in his methods,cunning
> > because what he did has no good ends. <idiocy>
> > In any case,that is just advanced astronomical forensics and unsuitable
> > for particpants here who have yet to affirm basic,if
> > spectacular,astronomical insights such as the easy to understand
> > Copernican insight for axial and orbital motion.The Keplerian
> > refinements, which are indeed intricate, is what Isaac used or
> > exploited to destroy the simple Copernican reasoning and I can easily
> > show how he did it.
> Time to deliver then.
The other poor guy is pleading with you to shut up while the personal
attack seems to be your flavor,either way,the correct way to approach
orbital motion in isolation is through the original Copernican
reasoning and the way to approach axial rotation in isolation,apart
from the daily cycle,is to admire and appreciate the great human
devised principles which correlate clocks ,terresyrial longitudes and
axial rotation at 15 degrees per hour precisely.
> >> Are you able to determine the observed orbit of Saturn without using
> >> Newtonian heliocentric geometry? Yes ?
> >> Then prove it by producing an almanac of Saturn for the next 6 months
> >> without using any published orbital elements, but purely based on the
> >> last
> >> 12 months observed positions of the planet and no mention of heliocentric
> >> coordinates.
> > Look,the Newtonian view of what retrogrades are and how they are
> > resolved is false and damaging as planetary motions around the Sun are
> > seen directly from an orbitally moving Earth.
> So you can't determine the orbit of Saturn as I proposed as an exercise to
> demonstrate your view. Well what a surprise, this 'superior method' of yours
> is worthless.
It is not my method,there is only one way to approach retorgrades and
only one way to resolve them.If you cannot stomach the words of
Copernicus then it is not my fault or business but certainly there is
nothing left of the hideous Newtonian conceptions and the utter
stupidity that generated it.
Most will carry on as if nothing happened but some will actually know
how contemporary imaging techniques are a complimentary addition to the
original Copernican reasoning
" In this arrangement, therefore, we discover a marvelous symmetry of
the universe, and an established harmonious linkage between the motion
of the spheres and their size, such as can be found in no other way.
For this permits a not inattentive student to perceive why the
forward and backward arcs appear greater in Jupiter than in Saturn and
smaller than in Mars, and on the other hand greater in Venus than in
Mercury. This reversal in direction appears more frequently in Saturn
than in Jupiter, and also more rarely in Mars and Venus than in
Mercury..... All these phenomena proceed from the same cause, which is
in the earth's motion." COPERNICUS
Nobody here was taught what Copernicus actually did,their education
would have amounted to 'Copernicus proved the Earth went around the
Sun' and then the subject would quickly have moved to Newton and his
particular 'genius'.He was no genius,at least not in astronomical
matters and his maneuvering,if consistent,is entirely stupid,any other
judgement would be unfair to the careful work of the astronomers.
Now,I have left this open for those who care to view the original
reasoning allied with contemporary time lapse footage of Jupiter and
Saturn.At this important juncture,astronomy can go two different
directions and no doubt,having little talent for astronomy,you would
certainly like to keep up the pretense that everything is fine.
All the work of the great astronomers was waiting for was contemporary
imaging to help things along and I am afraid your well honed defences
cannot hold out against genuine progress.The affirmation is in the
imaging as well as the ability to highlight less careful treatments
such as Newton's.