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Re: Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 14

Subject: Re: Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 14
From: chris glur
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:58:42 +0300
 but if you need to have multiple files simultaneously visible,
 to search, replace, cutNpaste between and change colour/font of text stretches
 [like you kokie-pen-colour paper text] all without looking down to find the
 <F?>, Ctrl ..keys, [because it's mouse (cord) driven] then no standard linux
 app. can do it  - althogh I've read that 'acme' [I think] which was inspired
 by ETH-Oberon can do it.
 Has anyone here used acme ?
------------
Have you heard about screen?
-------
Yes, apart from the fact that it crashes because AFAIK it uses some kind of
VNC-scheme, you still have to be a concert-pianist on the key-brd, to swap
between files. Altho' I probably would still use it if I didn't have ETH-Oberon,
where I work head-up. mc allows you to view, edit, delete, move, copy,
execute ..
files by just pointing at the file [who's name you don't need to
remember verbatim -
just recognise] and them activating the relevant "function".
ETH-Oberon goes further:
you don't need to "point to the function" you just "think" of the
required function
and while you're pointing [the mouse cursor] you fingers do the
required chording,
like when you're riding a bicycle and you sub-consciously feel you're falling to
the left, you correct by reflex. Whereas mc's arguments are file/Dir
IDs and must
be in the menu-list of the 2 panels; leo's-args can be anywhere visible on the
screen, in any window; and most trivial operations are 'in your
fingers reflexes'.
With normal/mc editors if I'm reading a file and I see "OCOu6n4nS_IJ",
and I want
to search for further copies of this string, I must:
1. F7
2. cutNpaste the awkard string
3. <enter>

For Leo, search & replace aren't trivial operations 'in your fingers reflexes':
they have buttons on the window-frame-header. So you do:
1. 'mouse-wipe-the-visible-anywhere-string'
2. 'cord' <the search-button-label-on the required window frame>

Few people seem to have analysed that the secret of Norton Commander
is the visual
facility.  Leo just goes one step further.

!! let me stop now !!





On 11/19/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 13 (chris glur)
>    2. Re: Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 12 (chris glur)
>    3. Re: Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 12 (Yury V. Zaytsev)
>    4. Re: mc in fedora 10 (Yury V. Zaytsev)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:31:19 +0300
> From: chris glur <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 13
> Message-ID:
>       <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>> Not everyone in the world has a high speed connection, after all, and in
>> some circumstances installations may be done where there is NO connection.
> ------
> Thanks for pointing that out.
> I've never had/done an install via net.
> --------
> The next step to really magnify the power of mc is to help multi-task use:
> if you take a data-centric view [vs. an applications view, which I guess is
> what's led to the monster browsers that do, mail & news & ..] then you'd
> have
> a dozen mc/s open to handle your current projects.  So as stuff arrives for
> the
> various projects, you'd want to be able to switch to the correct mc of the
> dozen
> or more.    Eg. you'd want to view a menu: like the <Ctl |> menu shows you
> 'relevant dirs' for one mc, you want to see relevant mc/s the current login.
> I've got a little script, which uses lsof [list open files] to find all of
> the
> active panels [the inactive half are unknown] and ps <something>, to map the
> mc-dit to a (Desktop, Console) pair.  So if an idea or something from the
> net
> arrives for OpenMoko, when I key "JS", I see that the menu contains:
>   2,4 = mnt/cdrom/OLPC/OpenMoko
> and possibly other mc-dirs, open for  mnt/cdrom/OLPC/OpenMoko.
> Which tells me to switch to Desktop 2, consol 4.
> Except that really I have to first key "P" to see
>   ---------> |2|3|1|2a|4|3a|
> which tells me that the 2nd desktop is number 3.
> And I had to construct this P-mapping manually by examining the pstree.
> I would have expected other heavy-duty mc uses to have fixed this problem ?
> Currently I've got 27 mcs open.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:07:58 +0300
> From: chris glur <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 12
> Message-ID:
>       <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> chris glur wrote:
>>> What made me immediately feel strange/negative towards Debian, is
>>> that it didn't install mc & gpm by default.
>
> MK wrote:
>> I think if you look around you will find MOST current distros
>> do not install mc by default, because MOST linux users do not
>> use it.  This was less true 5-10 years ago.  I installed Fedora
>> 10-64 in January and (at least at that time) there was not
>> even an .rpm package available -- I had to build from source,
>> which I tend to do anyway, so big deal.
>
> So they boot straight into X.
> Can they chose one out of several X-systems, from the monster DVDs,
> to avoid having to see VTs ?
>
>> Most users do not like console apps and do not need gpm either.
>
> You've been talking about compiling kernels ..etc. which I'd never want to
> do.
> I compiled some linux stuff once and was shocked by the big-message list and
> time it took. The first time C-users compile ETH-Oberon they think its not
> working, because it just writes something like:
>  "Compiled  News.Obj   1347253 bytes"   and stops!
> Because its done.
>
> So can you avoid using non-X when compiling a different X or a kernel ?
>
> The main reason why I have to use Oberon, which fortunately can run on linux
> [as well as native] is to have a proper heads-up editor. mc's editor is nice
> for simple jobs, but if you need to have multiple files simultaneously
> visible,
> to search, replace, cutNpaste between and change colour/font of text
> stretches
> [like you kokie-pen-colour paper text] all without looking down to find the
> <F?>, Ctrl ..keys, [because it's mouse (cord) driven] then no standard linux
> app. can do it  - althogh I've read that 'acme' [I think] which was inspired
> by ETH-Oberon can do it.
> Has anyone here used acme ?
> BTW, I previously told how we need a self-updating menu system to know which
> desktop/console has got the mc which is at or near the dir related to
> eg. "acme",
> so that I can check the correct name/spelling. So now I'll have to
> call 2 scripts
> which will tell me which of the 24 currently open mc/s to switch to.
> I'm writing this with the mc-editor [which I'll paste to the the
> crappy web-based
> gmailer, which I use for mail-lists which must live after/if I change
> my crappy ISP,
> which has a proper pop-emailer, because if I try to set up gmail pop,
> something may
> go wrong with the existing ...like once before].  And Ctrl O allows me
> to see the
> 24 mc's dirs; and none is at/near <acme>, so [I must resist opening another
> mc]
> I could change one of the "probably not needed soon dirs" [like in the
> 'Ctl |' menu]
> or I can use the other half/panel of some existing mc, and if I don't
> switch back
> after using it the 24-mc-menu will be changed. OK so I found it & I'll cut:
> "The design of the interface was
>    influenced  by Oberon. It is different from other editing environments
>    in  that  it  acts  as  a 9P server. A distinctive element of the user
>    interface is mouse chording."
>
> How can people possibly do this type of 'micro-management' without mc ?!
> I guess they don't.  They just use what the marketers feed them.
> That's why usenet which was designed by engineers and not owned by anyone,
> has been replaced by facebook ..etc. which the kiddies are apparently all
> using.
> And they have become dependant on the owners/controllers of the
> "better experience"
> generating devices.
>
> Ahmen!
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:36:30 +0100
> From: "Yury V. Zaytsev" <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 12
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 07:07 +0300, chris glur wrote:
>
>> The first time C-users compile ETH-Oberon they think its not working,
>>  because it just writes something like:  "Compiled  News.Obj   1347253
>>  bytes"   and stops! Because its done.
>
> Which is not surprising at all, considering the design of this language.
>
>> How can people possibly do this type of 'micro-management' without mc
>>  ?! I guess they don't.  They just use what the marketers feed them.
>
> Have you heard about screen?
>
> --
> Sincerely yours,
> Yury V. Zaytsev
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:03:17 +0100
> From: "Yury V. Zaytsev" <[email protected]>
> To: MK <[email protected]>
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: mc in fedora 10
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 21:58 -0500, MK wrote:
>
>>  No, I've done the "linux from scratch" thing, actually, which means
>>  building a new glibc, bootstrap-rebuilding gcc, etc, then every other
>>  single library after that.
>
> I officially declare myself defeated.
>
> Not only we are coming from different planets, but also have different
> concepts about time ;-) I just can't afford pulling and rebuilding the
> dependencies manually while this can be easily done by a package
> manager.
>
> --
> Sincerely yours,
> Yury V. Zaytsev
>
>
>
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> End of Mc Digest, Vol 67, Issue 14
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