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RE: [Ecrit] What is anuninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-03

Subject: RE: [Ecrit] What is anuninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-03
From: "Brian Rosen"
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:43:02 -0500
I think the chairs should ask for a hum on whether uninitialized 
devices/unathenticated access and location hiding must be described in 
-phonebcp before we WGLC it.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:36 AM
> To: Brian Rosen
> Cc: 'GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART)'; 'Dawson, Martin'; 'Cullen Jennings';
> 'ECRIT'
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] What is anuninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-ecrit-
> phonebcp-03
> 
> Hi Brian,
> 
> I am a bit reluctant to open this discussion again given that we had
> already agreement.
> Our current status is that we deal with these issues in separate
> documents -- we will investigate them but it will take time.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> 
> Brian Rosen wrote:
> > I understand you argued, but I don't think we got consensus.
> >
> > I think without location hiding and unauthenticated access we don't have
> a solution.
> >
> > QoS can wait
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@xxxxxxx]
> >> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:30 AM
> >> To: Brian Rosen
> >> Cc: 'GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART)'; 'Dawson, Martin'; 'Cullen Jennings';
> >> 'ECRIT'
> >> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] What is anuninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-ecrit-
> >> phonebcp-03
> >>
> >> Hi Brian,
> >>
> >> see the discussion at IETF#69:
> >> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07jul/minutes/ecrit.txt
> >>
> >> The meeting minutes are short but indicate what we discussed:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Brian - considers that the framework/bcp are the last documents out of
> >>>
> >> ECRIT as they document how this works and to go to a RFC status then
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hannes - argues that they are orthogonal
> >>>
> >>> Hannes - QoS how is this done is another, e.g., so this is just for
> the
> >>>
> >> base protocol
> >>
> >>
> >>> Brian - can do it.
> >>>
> >>> James - just going to second Hannes
> >>>
> >>> Consensus to go for WGLC
> >>>
> >> If you want then we can use this meeting again to ask the question
> about
> >> * Location Hiding
> >> * Unauthenticated Emergency Services
> >> being addressed in this document.
> >> There are most likely other things to consider (such as QoS) in the
> >> future but we don't even have a document about it.
> >>
> >> I strongly argued that we should deal with these issues after we got
> the
> >> current documents done.
> >>
> >> Ciao
> >> Hannes
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Brian Rosen wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hannes
> >>>
> >>> Could you point me to the meeting minutes, chair consensus call, etc
> >>>
> >> where the group "decided to postpone it"?
> >>
> >>> Brian
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@xxxxxxx]
> >>>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:03 AM
> >>>> To: Brian Rosen
> >>>> Cc: 'GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART)'; 'Dawson, Martin'; 'Cullen
> Jennings';
> >>>> 'ECRIT'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] What is anuninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-ecrit-
> >>>> phonebcp-03
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Brian
> >>>>
> >>>> there are two issues:
> >>>>
> >>>> a) Do we want to talk about this issue in the current framework
> >>>>
> >> document?
> >>
> >>>> In the past the group decided to postpone it. We have compiled a
> >>>> separate document that deals with this issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> b) What are the specific terms we should use? Can we just use one
> term
> >>>> that covers all these aspects?
> >>>>
> >>>> This is something we should discuss once we got the framework/phone
> BCP
> >>>> document done.
> >>>> There is a set of terminology proposal available and I am more than
> >>>> happy to discuss the different aspects. I do not believe that all the
> >>>> different cases can be addressed by a single term.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ciao
> >>>> Hannes
> >>>>
> >>>> Brian Rosen wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> That dices and slices the problem in many ways.  A simple term is
> >>>>>
> >> needed
> >>
> >>>> for the big picture.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Brian
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@xxxxxxx]
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:26 AM
> >>>>>> To: Brian Rosen
> >>>>>> Cc: 'GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART)'; 'Dawson, Martin'; 'Cullen
> >>>>>>
> >> Jennings';
> >>
> >>>>>> 'ECRIT'
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] What is anuninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-
> ecrit-
> >>>>>> phonebcp-03
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There is terminology proposals in a separate document.
> >>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/draft-schulzrinne-ecrit-
> >>>>>>
> >> unauthenticated-
> >>
> >>>>>> access-01.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This terminology was discussed with Wimax Forum members.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ciao
> >>>>>> Hannes
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brian Rosen wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Doesn't improve things from my point of view.  "Authorization" is
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> slightly better in formal terms, but I think that gets confused
> with
> >>>>>> mechanisms (crypto, ...).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Brian
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART) [mailto:sgoldman@alcatel-
> >>>>>>>>
> >> lucent.com]
> >>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 12:33 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Brian Rosen; Dawson, Martin; Cullen Jennings
> >>>>>>>> Cc: ECRIT
> >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] What is anuninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-
> >>>>>>>>
> >> ecrit-
> >>
> >>>>>>>> phonebcp-03
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Brian,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Would the definition be better if "permission" were changed to
> >>>>>>>> "arrangement"?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Stuart Goldman
> >>>>>>>> Alcatel-Lucent
> >>>>>>>> sgoldman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>> +1 602 493 8438
> >>>>>>>> ï please save a tree by not printing this e-mail.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Brian Rosen [mailto:br@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:29 AM
> >>>>>>>> To: 'Dawson, Martin'; 'Cullen Jennings'
> >>>>>>>> Cc: 'ECRIT'
> >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] What is anuninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-
> >>>>>>>>
> >> ecrit-
> >>
> >>>>>>>> phonebcp-03
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yeah, slight reword.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> An uninitialized device does not have permission to use the
> access
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> and/or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> calling network but local regulation requires the access and
> >>>>>>>>
> >> calling
> >>
> >>>>>>>> networks to grant such permission for the sole purpose of making
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> emergency
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> calls.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>> From: Dawson, Martin [mailto:Martin.Dawson@xxxxxxxxxx]
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 12:34 AM
> >>>>>>>>> To: Cullen Jennings; Brian Rosen
> >>>>>>>>> Cc: ECRIT
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] What is an uninitializeddevice- draft-ietf-
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> ecrit-
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> phonebcp-03
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Does it actually scan?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Was the intent to say that the *access network* is required to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> permit
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> such a device to have access for the purpose of making emergency
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> calls?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It reads as if it's the device that has the requirement upon
> it...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>> From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@xxxxxxxxx]
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 3 December 2007 4:31 PM
> >>>>>>>>> To: Brian Rosen
> >>>>>>>>> Cc: ECRIT
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] What is an uninitializeddevice-
> >>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-03
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> An unitialized device does not have permission to use the
> access
> >>>>>>>>>> and/or
> >>>>>>>>>> calling network, but is required, by regulation to permit such
> >>>>>>>>>> access for
> >>>>>>>>>> the sole purpose of making emergency calls.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I like that definition. Cullen <with my individual contributor
> hat
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> on>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Ecrit mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> Ecrit@xxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> >>>>>>>>>
> >> --
> >>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
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> information.
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> >>>>>>>>> immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
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> >>>>>>>>>
> >> --
> >>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----------------------
> >>>>>>>>> [mf2]
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Ecrit mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Ecrit@xxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Ecrit mailing list
> >>>>>>> Ecrit@xxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>


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