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Re: [apnic-talk] Application for India NIR - Call for Comments

Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Application for India NIR - Call for Comments
From: "G P Singh"
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:27:50 +0530 IST
Dear Philip

Thanks for giving your valuable time and support.

You are right when a NIR will work around these issues things will
definitely improve.

Regards

G P Singh



> Thanks very much for your clear response.
>
> To pick up a on one point, I don't understand why ISPs have taken upon
> themselves to determine how much address space a significant customer of
> their's should be getting. The practice that I see across the region is
>  that ISPs who are not APNIC members get address space they require from
> their upstream. If their upstream won't deliver, I'd say this is a
> pretty good case for the ISP to change their upstream. A Class B ISP
> telling a Class C ISP how much address space they should have sounds
> very much like anti-competitive practice to me. Perhaps an NIR will work
> around this problem if there are no existing laws to cover it in India?
>
> Thanks for the offer of a telephone conversation but I fail to see how
> that would help with this public discussion.
>
> philip
> --
>
> G P Singh said the following on 21/11/09 19:40 :
>> Dear Philip,
>>
>> I appreciate your valued concern and time devoted by you.
>>
>> I believe the intention of Nixi is to provide a better services at local
>> level at low cost in regional language as per Indian Standard Time.
>>
>> In our country there are three categories of ISPs
>>
>> CLASS A, CLASS B, CLASS C,
>>
>> Class A ISPs are operating at National Level and most of them having
>> there
>> IP address resources from APNIC
>>
>> Class B ISPs are operating at State Level and Few of them having there
>> IP
>> address resources from APNIC
>>
>> Class C ISPs are operating at District Level and very less of them
>> having
>> there IP address resources from APNIC
>>
>> When ISPs who are not having there IP resources generally request to
>> there
>> upstream provider.
>>
>> Case 1.
>>
>> If ISPs are running there services to cooperate customers (point to
>> point
>> / lease line ) only
>> The requirement of IP Address resources are very less. And in routine
>> the
>> requirement is full filled by there upstream service provider.
>>
>> Case 2
>>
>> If ISPs are running Broadband services  The requirement of IP Address
>> resources are very high depending upon his subscriber base.
>>
>> For example for a subscriber base of 5000 one need at least 2500 IP
>> address resources. IP address allocation may vary depending upon the
>> technology adopted / area topology / population density / concurrent
>> user
>> sessions.
>> In case 2 the upstream service provider not full fill the requirement
>> and
>> this scenario  ISP run the proxy server.
>>
>> In both the above mentioned cases the bandwidth Intake is approximately
>> same.
>>
>> The commercial constrain of taking IP address resources from APNIC is
>> the
>> membership tier fee. Then annual IP address allocation cost.
>>
>> NIXI as NIR definitely address the above issues like other existing NIRs
>> doing in there respective region.
>>
>> In today business scenario each and every company in the world is
>> cutting
>> cost for there survival.
>>
>> Many ISPs are switching to open sources routers
>> When one compare Open source router to CISCO it cost just 10%.
>> We personally tested and running open source router at few locations
>> successfully with 100 % uptime â?? Again this for cost cutting
>>
>> When we compare the server, switches, routers its one time cost i.e.
>> capital and cost is very less then IP address resources.
>>
>> For cost cutting and knowledge source International companies came India
>> and open Call Center / Back Office Operation / development Center.
>>
>> If part of operations of APNIC came to India every one will get benefit
>> specially Indian Internet Community.
>>
>> You are right the Indian content is still out side.
>> We all are trying to develop more data centers. This is a process it
>> will
>> take time.
>>
>> My non English speaking staff tries to Contact APNIC Helpdesk many time
>> He
>> never get any Indian language supporting staff on help desk.
>>
>> Nixi already doing training sessions free of cost to ISPs in India. And
>> on
>> request they arrange special sessions as per there technical capacity.
>>
>> If a trainer came from out side India it will cost high when we compare
>> it
>> with Local Indian trainer.
>>
>> I personally attended a session with APNIC trainer there is accent
>> problem
>> in there English. Half of class not able not understand what trainer is
>> speaking. Thank God OHP slides are there to visualize the subjected
>> matter.
>>
>> In the training session we ask questions to the trainer and the trainer
>> not able to answer the subjected question just say â??the question will
>> be
>> covered in next training sessionâ?? the next session never came. The
>> trainer
>> fly to there home town.
>> Accountability always required in every process.
>>
>> I never say all the trainers are like that, The question is ACCESS TO
>> THE
>> SOURCE
>>
>> Every industry is having different business model as per there regional
>> economics.
>>
>>
>> I think NIXI as NIR should be taken as positive approach to words
>> development of Internet in INDIA.
>>
>> we can have telephonic discussion on this topic. Give me your phone
>> number
>> I will call as per Indian time between 10 am to 6 pm.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> G P Singh
>>
>>
>>
>>> Some questions, just to help with clarification and understanding...
>>>
>>> [email protected] said the following on 20/11/09 20:02 :
>>>> In our country only 6 ââ?¬â?? 7 % of people can speak English, All of
>>>> them
>>>> are
>>>> not 100% fluent in English. The people are more comfortable in the
>>>> regional language.
>>> Is the intention for NIXI to provide language translation services?
>>>
>>>> Many ISP�s still not having there own IP resources. They hardly
>>>> get 32
>>>> IPs
>>>> from there upstream Internet Service Provider for allocating to there
>>>> proxy servers and they run there network on Private IPs by keeping
>>>> there
>>>> logs of the server.
>>> Why can these ISPs not get more than a /27 worth of *address* *space*
>>> (not IP, whatever that is) from their upstream? I assume these
>>> upstreams
>>> are also Indian ISPs.
>>>
>>> And how will an NIR help with this problem?
>>>
>>> It sounds more as though the problems many Indian ISPs are having is
>>> being caused by the business practices of their upstreams.
>>>
>>> If these ISPs went to APNIC instead, they'd get the address space they
>>> need. So apart from a perceived language barrier, why are they not
>>> doing
>>> this?
>>>
>>>> The main reason for not taking IP resources are
>>>> 1. Cost constraint
>>> I find this quite amazing given that ISPs have to buy servers,
>>> switches,
>>> routers, pay huge costs for domestic bandwidth, and even more for
>>> international as so much Indian content is *still* sitting overseas.
>>> The
>>> cost of obtaining address space is totally trivial in comparison. Or
>>> are
>>> there special Indian prices for all the other infrastructure?
>>>
>>>> 2. Language Barrier
>>> I believe APNIC have several staff of Indian origin fluent in the
>>> national languages.
>>>
>>>> 3. Communication gap
>>> Can you explain what this means?
>>>
>>>> The cost will come down as the allocation will be done locally. The
>>>> cost
>>>> of operation in India is less.
>>> I think you misunderstand how an NIR functions. Allocations are still
>>> made by APNIC. An NIR does much of the initial contact and evaluation
>>> work, and adheres completely to the RIR policies.
>>>
>>>> The trainers of Local Region will be more accessible / accountable.
>>> Will NIXI be offering training services also? How will these be paid
>>> for?
>>>
>>> AFAIK, APNIC's training team spends a large amount of time in India.
>>> Never mind SANOG doing a large number of workshops twice a year in the
>>> region. I agree that more training is beneficial, but someone has to
>>> pay.
>>>
>>> I hope that answers to these questions will help clarify the NIR
>>> proposal for everyone here.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> philip
>>> --
>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> G P Singh
>>>> Manager ââ?¬â?? Operations
>>>>
>>>> Geo City Network Solutions Pvt. Ltd.
>>>> 118, Somdutt Chambers - II,
>>>> 9, Bhikaji Cama Place
>>>> New Delhi - 110066, India
>>>> Ph.: 91 11 41625188, 91 11 41625189
>>>> www.geocitysolutions.co.in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> apnic-talk mailing list
>>>> [email protected]
>>>> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apnic-talk
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> G P Singh (+91 9818213185)
>> Manager - Operations
>> Geocity Network Solutions Pvt Ltd
>> 118, Somdutt Chambers - II,
>> 9, Bhikaji Cama Place, New Delhi 110066
>> India
>> www.geocity.co.in
>> Phone : 91 11 41625188, 91 11 41625189
>>
>>
>
>


G P Singh (+91 9818213185)
Manager - Operations
Geocity Network Solutions Pvt Ltd
118, Somdutt Chambers - II,
9, Bhikaji Cama Place, New Delhi 110066
India
www.geocity.co.in
Phone : 91 11 41625188, 91 11 41625189

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