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Re: [apnic-talk] apnic-talk Digest, Vol 67, Issue 44

Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] apnic-talk Digest, Vol 67, Issue 44
From: "Brajesh jain"
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:21:10 +0530
Dear APNIC Internet Community friends,

This response is on behalf of ISOC, Delhi Chapter. I happen to be in Chair
as of now.

ISOC Delhi chapter has been very happy to learn that NIR is about to be
functional in India.

We understand that ICANN guidelines are followed by APNIC and would need to
be followed by India NIR. We have also noted that there are existing NIRs in
other countries  already working successfully. 

ISOC Delhi chapter has embarked on educating users of Internet, benefits and
responsibility of user as well. We also work with other ISOC chapters in
India for extending such education in other parts of India. Internet
subscribes need inputs towards understanding connectivity and flow of
information in Internet cloud. They have concerns over continuity of service
as well as privacy of information. They also have concerns about shortage of
IP addresses. 

ISOC Delhi chapter welcomes and fully supports creation of NIR in India. The
Delhi Chapter would fully support NIR in its operation and formation of
guidelines and commits to monitor NIR activities and adherence to
ICANN/APNIC norms and guidelines.

Thanks for your time.

With regards and best wishes for success of NIR in India.

Brajesh C Jain
Chair, ISOC Delhi Chapter   

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Sent: 24 November 2009 08:58
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Subject: apnic-talk Digest, Vol 67, Issue 44

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  [Apnic-announce] Application for India NIR - Call for
      Comments (Vebtel - Kusumba S)


Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:52:11 +0530
From: Vebtel - Kusumba S <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] [Apnic-announce] Application for India NIR -
        Call for Comments
To: kramvir singh <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Ofcourse, as long as:

All one may understand here is that the members of NIXI are ISPs and 
registrars. Whereas, members for NIR are Corporates, Independent 
Companies (not necessarily are peering to any ISP that is member of 
NIXI), Defence establishments,  Financial Institutions, IT companies, 
Manufacturing companies, Educational institutions etc who have nothing 
to do with NIXI. So, the "need" neither addressed them nor the "cause" 
explains the same since the only document that is available talks about 
NIXI / ISPAI / DoT / TRAI.... Also, if NIXI has to form the NIR, I don't 
see a situation where NIXI will alter its board for the cause of NIR to 
include other members of NIR!

Hence, neutrality cannot be achieved since the dominance is of NIXI 
members, unless a separate Section 25 is established as "by members", 
"for member" and "to members".


You may have read over this ten times... but thats the point! I am sure 
you know the current composition of members of APNIC from India.

*Kusumba S*

kramvir singh wrote:
> When I referred to 'you' not there, it also meant 'we' are not there. 
> But your neutrality point is well meaning.
> My concern was only one - not having NIR, which also you have 
> clarified. We all want NIR in India.
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:44 PM, kramvir singh <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>     If Neutrality is the only concern then I think NIXI should clarify
>     this.  However, if you are not there does not mean Neutrality is
>     not there.
>      Greetings,
>     On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Vebtel - Kusumba S
>     <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>         Check my comments below:
>         kramvir singh wrote:
>>         Thank You for acknowledging that NIR in India shall be formed.
>         Kusumba S >>> Please correct... there is no acknowledgment and
>         at the same time there is no objection! No objection cannot be
>         attributed to acknowledgment. As I clarified in my last mail,
>         unless the documents and neutrality is established, it is
>         difficult to get convinced. When I say neutrality, it is "by
>         members", "for member" and "to members" from top of the
>         organization to the ground. Without which, it is never neutral
>         but a compromise for no reason.
>>         The detailed response of Desi and others are not helping you
>>         as your objective is outsourcing of APNIC. This outsourcing,
>>         I agree is not being talked by community and that?s why you
>>         are finding the discussion void.
>         Kusumba S >>> NIR did not raise outsourcing issue. As again,
>         you may have missed, I have mentioned this in detail about two
>         years back!
>>         Please help the community with your inputs on what was your
>>         plan and objectives for  NIR, as your statements suggest that
>>         you only  know and others do not know.Please shower your
>>         blessings  on the lesser mortals like us too!
>         Kusumba S >>> Ofcourse, would have been the first to do it
>         when I find neutrality. As a matter of fact, may be you are
>         not aware of history when the first NIR
>         thought-process-documentation was made. The basic application
>         itself is not complying the above three requirements "by
>         members", "for member" and "to members", so it does not
>         qualify my view.
>         Greetings,
>         *Kusumba S*
>>         On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Vebtel - Kusumba S
>>         <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>             While I appreciate your reasoning, the concerns will not
>>             be addressed till such time the documents are published
>>             and made public.
>>             No one, including me said that NIR in India should not be
>>             formed! However, the reasons attributed to it and the
>>             comments on the mails represented that there is no
>>             clarity on the formation of NIR since there is no
>>             evidence of alignment with International community and
>>             best practices. Some additional comments even raised
>>             doubts if NIR is being looked as a "problem-solving"
>>             solution or "community participation" system for India.
>>             Added to that are the "emotions" of angular momentums and
>>             tendencies of something going off the tangent that allows
>>             one to think if there is a defined system for
>>             establishing, running, managing and consistently ensuring
>>             protection of global resources and procedures through or
>>             at NIR in India, if formed.
>>             To rule out all this, all you could do is, establish
>>             those simple procedural documents and make things clear.
>>             If you intend not to do, for whatever the reason you wish
>>             to attribute to such as "criteria", "compliance", etc etc
>>             etc... , this discussion is void!
>>             Ofcourse, irrespective of anything here, APNIC can always
>>             look at outsourcing or relocating some of the operations
>>             to cost effective countries, something that I mentioned
>>             two years back too!
>>             Greetings,
>>             *Kusumba S
>>             *
>>             kramvir singh wrote:
>>>             All your  earlier mails have been responded by Desi/
>>>             Mutthuswamy / Brajesh and others in details. Looks to me
>>>             that you have missed out. However please feel free to
>>>             point out if any concern has not been responded.
>>>             NIR is not the solution of all woes but  NIR is an
>>>             opportunity for addressing few of them!
>>>             Whenever anyone would do things on their own, the
>>>             learning?s, importance, implementation are entirely
>>>             different. Mutthuswamy has also tried to explain the
>>>             same in his mail. Similarly Desi?s response on routers
>>>             from Japan.
>>>             You need to have your objectives clear. Is it your
>>>             concern on APNIC revenue or one time your interest for
>>>             NIR without Govt. endorsement which was dropped by APNIC
>>>             community.
>>>             If it is APNIC's revenue, then it is not only because of
>>>             India NIR , it is also due to the other 6 NIRs. In
>>>             Andy?s words ?This is no reason to reject NIR for India
>>>              ?. If it is due to drop of your proposal due to drop of
>>>             endorsement, this itself is enough for us to understand
>>>             that NIR is required.
>>>             Dear brother, hope your all concerns are addressed. If
>>>             not, be positive to get it addressed when NIR comes to
>>>             India!
>>>             On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:51 PM, kramvir singh
>>>             <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>>             wrote:
>>>                 Good,  you have stopped referring yourself as -
>>>                 "we/community". This ?I? shall be addressed. The
>>>                 right to publishing the document is with APNIC and
>>>                 they have done it.Please connect to their initial
>>>                 communication and you will have all the details. I
>>>                 am sure your so- claimed point already made, would
>>>                 get further clarity.
>>>                 On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Vebtel - Kusumba S
>>>                 <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>                     I think the way I would look at this in the
>>>                     respect of others here, ignore this! Thats not
>>>                     the point to debate with you! The point is
>>>                     already made clear in my earlier mail and if one
>>>                     has clarity on those things, publish the same
>>>                     and thats it! Nothing to talk!
>>>                     *Kusumba S*
>>>                     kramvir singh wrote:
>>>>                     Hey, I find the entire response deviating .
>>>>                      In your mail I have noticed that you have
>>>>                     referred yourself as ?we? and ?community?
>>>>                     whereas in my understanding I am not able to
>>>>                     place you in any community in India?.so please
>>>>                     do not impose your individual views as
>>>>                     community views!
>>>>                      NIXI has applied for NIR so the discussion
>>>>                     should be nation or at the most regional only.
>>>>                      I have nowhere referred anything about
>>>>                     language , IP, financial constraints etc?. How
>>>>                     my understanding the same would help me in
>>>>                     understanding which community you come from?
>>>>                      I appreciate your view point on outsourcing
>>>>                     from APNIC, but how it gets relevant on this
>>>>                     APNIC talk is a surprise for me! In community
>>>>                     instead of preaching and patronizing , please
>>>>                     contribute in a positive manner.
>>>>                      In the morning I have seen mails of Andy,
>>>>                     Gaurav, Naresh and Philip which were very
>>>>                     positive and talking about brasstrack.
>>>>                      Community representatives like Desi
>>>>                     ,Mutthuswamy and  Brajesh  are responding well.
>>>>                     And hope they also check on your community
>>>>                     affiliation.
>>>>                      In brief,which community you belong &
>>>>                     referring is still not clear.
>>>>                      Thanks for the only kind word in your mail ?
>>>>                     Brother!
>>>>                     On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Vebtel -
>>>>                     Kusumba S <[email protected]
>>>>                     <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>                         Hey,
>>>>                         This is the exact problem you seem to be
>>>>                         having! You only know two countries in
>>>>                         entire Asia Pacific region!
>>>>                         On Internet resources that are global
>>>>                         resources, one cannot demonstrate
>>>>                         "regional" problems and claim a stake in
>>>>                         there, no matter even if you were to be
>>>>                         from either of the countries you mentioned
>>>>                         below!
>>>>                         Further, as long as you learn to talk
>>>>                         "community" language, you will not talk
>>>>                         problems like "language", "no ip
>>>>                         addresses", "financial constraints",
>>>>                         "upstream non-operation", etc.... community
>>>>                         facilitates you to handle them already and
>>>>                         you will known if you are part of that
>>>>                         community for the "cause" and not for "need".
>>>>                         So, hope that clarifies, which part of
>>>>                         community I belong to brother!
>>>>                         *
>>>>                         Kusumba S
>>>>                         *
>>>>                         kramvir singh wrote:
>>>>>                         Which country are you from , India or
>>>>>                         Pakistan?
>>>>>                          If India,  please clarify which Internet
>>>>>                         community  you represent as, you have
>>>>>                         mentioned in your mail you have been
>>>>>                         saying ?we/community??
>>>>>                         On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:29 PM, kramvir
>>>>>                         singh <[email protected]
>>>>>                         <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>                             ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>                             From: *Vebtel - Kusumba S*
>>>>>                             <[email protected]
>>>>>                             <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>>>>                             Date: Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:19 PM
>>>>>                             Subject: Re: [apnic-talk]
>>>>>                             [Apnic-announce] Application for India
>>>>>                             NIR - Call for Comments
>>>>>                             To: [email protected]
>>>>>                             <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>                             Dear Colleagues,
>>>>>                             I think this thread is running no
>>>>>                             where since the "need" and "cause" are
>>>>>                             way apart and are not justified. So,
>>>>>                             as I see, here is what I think the
>>>>>                             least expected here, ofcourse
>>>>>                             resulting in what I have explained in
>>>>>                             "activity 2" here:
>>>>>                             *Activity 1:*
>>>>>                             1) The applicant makes the application
>>>>>                             public here.
>>>>>                             2) The applicant demonstrates
>>>>>                             endorsement and adoption of open
>>>>>                             policy frame work by doing the following:
>>>>>                                    i) publish documentation for
>>>>>                             composition of the proposed company
>>>>>                                    ii) publish documentation for
>>>>>                             composition of the proposed board,
>>>>>                             stake holding, election process of the
>>>>>                             board, election of the CEO / Chair /
>>>>>                             Secretary / Treasurer
>>>>>                                    iii) publish documentation
>>>>>                             detailing voting policy and voting
>>>>>                             rights for both members and non members
>>>>>                                    iv) publish documentation for
>>>>>                             making policy proposals, policy
>>>>>                             framework, policy endorsements and
>>>>>                             policy management
>>>>>                                    v) publish documentation for
>>>>>                             decision management cycle, board
>>>>>                             functioning and member participation
>>>>>                                    vi) publish process for
>>>>>                             financial management, financial
>>>>>                             decision power, funding structure and
>>>>>                             budget
>>>>>                                    vii) publish documentation
>>>>>                             detailing process management such as
>>>>>                             "resource requests", "change
>>>>>                             requests", "whois updates", "object
>>>>>                             management", etc
>>>>>                                    viii) demonstrate the
>>>>>                             capability of managing the operations
>>>>>                             of NIR by showcasing the proposed team
>>>>>                             structure, roles and functions definitions
>>>>>                                    ix) publish document detailing
>>>>>                             the roles of members, non - members,
>>>>>                             interest groups and community
>>>>>                             participation
>>>>>                                    finally,
>>>>>                                    ix) an undertaking that the
>>>>>                             resource allocation will be free and
>>>>>                             open as per the above frame work and
>>>>>                             the same shall not be inter linked or
>>>>>                             related to any other compliances and
>>>>>                             process of either licensing or
>>>>>                             regulations. The same need to be
>>>>>                             adopted into the "Articles of
>>>>>                             Association" and "Memorandum of
>>>>>                             Association" of the proposed company,
>>>>>                             which I guess will be an independent
>>>>>                             section 25 (not for profit) company
>>>>>                             without stake holding by any other
>>>>>                             existing companies.
>>>>>                             *Activity 2:*
>>>>>                             1) If NIR in India is formed, the
>>>>>                             revenues of APNIC will be impacted
>>>>>                             significantly. I am not sure if there
>>>>>                             is a way out there, but here is what I
>>>>>                             propose:
>>>>>                                 i) APNIC should start considering
>>>>>                             outsourcing some of their operations
>>>>>                             to least operational-cost countries
>>>>>                             like India, that helps them to reduce
>>>>>                             the operational costs including real
>>>>>                             estate costs, staff costs,
>>>>>                             communication costs, etc.
>>>>>                                 ii) APNIC may publish financial
>>>>>                             projections for next three years with
>>>>>                             two options:
>>>>>                                          a) continue operations
>>>>>                             as-is and the impact with Indian NIR
>>>>>                             (considering about 70% of the Indian
>>>>>                             members will move to Indian NIR in
>>>>>                             next one year)
>>>>>                                          b) outsource or relocate
>>>>>                             some of the operations to
>>>>>                             low-operational cost countries and
>>>>>                             analyse the impact on the financial
>>>>>                             situation.
>>>>>                              I am confident that the answers for
>>>>>                             all the above will make the community
>>>>>                             be assured that things are the way as
>>>>>                             needed.
>>>>>                             Greetings,
>>>>>                             *Kusumba S
>>>>>                             www.linkedin.com/in/kusumba
>>>>>                             <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kusumba>
>>>>>                             *
>>>>>                             apnic-talk mailing list
>>>>>                             [email protected]
>>>>>                             <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>                         _______________________________________________
>>>>                         apnic-talk mailing list
>>>>                         [email protected]
>>>>                         <mailto:[email protected]>
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