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Re: [apnic-talk] Application for India NIR - Call for Comments

Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Application for India NIR - Call for Comments
From: Philip Smith
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:11:50 +1000
Thanks very much for your clear response.

To pick up a on one point, I don't understand why ISPs have taken upon
themselves to determine how much address space a significant customer of
their's should be getting. The practice that I see across the region is
 that ISPs who are not APNIC members get address space they require from
their upstream. If their upstream won't deliver, I'd say this is a
pretty good case for the ISP to change their upstream. A Class B ISP
telling a Class C ISP how much address space they should have sounds
very much like anti-competitive practice to me. Perhaps an NIR will work
around this problem if there are no existing laws to cover it in India?

Thanks for the offer of a telephone conversation but I fail to see how
that would help with this public discussion.


G P Singh said the following on 21/11/09 19:40 :
> Dear Philip,
> I appreciate your valued concern and time devoted by you.
> I believe the intention of Nixi is to provide a better services at local
> level at low cost in regional language as per Indian Standard Time.
> In our country there are three categories of ISPs
> Class A ISPs are operating at National Level and most of them having there
> IP address resources from APNIC
> Class B ISPs are operating at State Level and Few of them having there IP
> address resources from APNIC
> Class C ISPs are operating at District Level and very less of them having
> there IP address resources from APNIC
> When ISPs who are not having there IP resources generally request to there
> upstream provider.
> Case 1.
> If ISPs are running there services to cooperate customers (point to point
> / lease line ) only
> The requirement of IP Address resources are very less. And in routine the
> requirement is full filled by there upstream service provider.
> Case 2
> If ISPs are running Broadband services  The requirement of IP Address
> resources are very high depending upon his subscriber base.
> For example for a subscriber base of 5000 one need at least 2500 IP
> address resources. IP address allocation may vary depending upon the
> technology adopted / area topology / population density / concurrent user
> sessions.
> In case 2 the upstream service provider not full fill the requirement and
> this scenario  ISP run the proxy server.
> In both the above mentioned cases the bandwidth Intake is approximately same.
> The commercial constrain of taking IP address resources from APNIC is the
> membership tier fee. Then annual IP address allocation cost.
> NIXI as NIR definitely address the above issues like other existing NIRs
> doing in there respective region.
> In today business scenario each and every company in the world is cutting
> cost for there survival.
> Many ISPs are switching to open sources routers
> When one compare Open source router to CISCO it cost just 10%.
> We personally tested and running open source router at few locations
> successfully with 100 % uptime â Again this for cost cutting
> When we compare the server, switches, routers its one time cost i.e.
> capital and cost is very less then IP address resources.
> For cost cutting and knowledge source International companies came India
> and open Call Center / Back Office Operation / development Center.
> If part of operations of APNIC came to India every one will get benefit
> specially Indian Internet Community.
> You are right the Indian content is still out side.
> We all are trying to develop more data centers. This is a process it will
> take time.
> My non English speaking staff tries to Contact APNIC Helpdesk many time He
> never get any Indian language supporting staff on help desk.
> Nixi already doing training sessions free of cost to ISPs in India. And on
> request they arrange special sessions as per there technical capacity.
> If a trainer came from out side India it will cost high when we compare it
> with Local Indian trainer.
> I personally attended a session with APNIC trainer there is accent problem
> in there English. Half of class not able not understand what trainer is
> speaking. Thank God OHP slides are there to visualize the subjected
> matter.
> In the training session we ask questions to the trainer and the trainer
> not able to answer the subjected question just say âthe question will be
> covered in next training sessionâ the next session never came. The trainer
> fly to there home town.
> Accountability always required in every process.
> I never say all the trainers are like that, The question is ACCESS TO THE
> Every industry is having different business model as per there regional
> economics.
> I think NIXI as NIR should be taken as positive approach to words
> development of Internet in INDIA.
> we can have telephonic discussion on this topic. Give me your phone number
> I will call as per Indian time between 10 am to 6 pm.
> Regards
> G P Singh
>> Some questions, just to help with clarification and understanding...
>> [email protected] said the following on 20/11/09 20:02 :
>>> In our country only 6 Ãââ 7 % of people can speak English, All of them
>>> are
>>> not 100% fluent in English. The people are more comfortable in the
>>> regional language.
>> Is the intention for NIXI to provide language translation services?
>>> Many ISPÃââs still not having there own IP resources. They hardly get 32
>>> IPs
>>> from there upstream Internet Service Provider for allocating to there
>>> proxy servers and they run there network on Private IPs by keeping there
>>> logs of the server.
>> Why can these ISPs not get more than a /27 worth of *address* *space*
>> (not IP, whatever that is) from their upstream? I assume these upstreams
>> are also Indian ISPs.
>> And how will an NIR help with this problem?
>> It sounds more as though the problems many Indian ISPs are having is
>> being caused by the business practices of their upstreams.
>> If these ISPs went to APNIC instead, they'd get the address space they
>> need. So apart from a perceived language barrier, why are they not doing
>> this?
>>> The main reason for not taking IP resources are
>>> 1.  Cost constraint
>> I find this quite amazing given that ISPs have to buy servers, switches,
>> routers, pay huge costs for domestic bandwidth, and even more for
>> international as so much Indian content is *still* sitting overseas. The
>> cost of obtaining address space is totally trivial in comparison. Or are
>> there special Indian prices for all the other infrastructure?
>>> 2.  Language Barrier
>> I believe APNIC have several staff of Indian origin fluent in the
>> national languages.
>>> 3.  Communication gap
>> Can you explain what this means?
>>> The cost will come down as the allocation will be done locally. The cost
>>> of operation in India is less.
>> I think you misunderstand how an NIR functions. Allocations are still
>> made by APNIC. An NIR does much of the initial contact and evaluation
>> work, and adheres completely to the RIR policies.
>>> The trainers of Local Region will be more accessible / accountable.
>> Will NIXI be offering training services also? How will these be paid for?
>> AFAIK, APNIC's training team spends a large amount of time in India.
>> Never mind SANOG doing a large number of workshops twice a year in the
>> region. I agree that more training is beneficial, but someone has to pay.
>> I hope that answers to these questions will help clarify the NIR
>> proposal for everyone here.
>> Thanks!
>> philip
>> --
>>> Regards
>>> G P Singh
>>> Manager Ãââ Operations
>>> Geo City Network Solutions Pvt. Ltd.
>>> 118, Somdutt Chambers - II,
>>> 9, Bhikaji Cama Place
>>> New Delhi - 110066, India
>>> Ph.: 91 11 41625188, 91 11 41625189
>>> www.geocitysolutions.co.in
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> apnic-talk mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apnic-talk
> G P Singh (+91 9818213185)
> Manager - Operations
> Geocity Network Solutions Pvt Ltd
> 118, Somdutt Chambers - II,
> 9, Bhikaji Cama Place, New Delhi 110066
> India
> www.geocity.co.in
> Phone : 91 11 41625188, 91 11 41625189

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