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Re: [apnic-talk] [Apnic-announce] Application for India NIR - Call for C

Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] [Apnic-announce] Application for India NIR - Call for Comments
From: Desi Valli
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:41:13 +0530
Hi Philip,

1. I understood your concern. I know it's an International forum in which I 
shouldn't have expressed the regional strategies of Cisco.:-)

Every vendor has their own India strategy (indianizing). For an example, Mobile 
equipment manufacturers "invented" the service model per connection in India. 
Airtel initiated this model in the name of outsourcing. Every other guys 
followed, in fact took this outside India too. Now, none of the mobile 
operators buy their Mobile network equipments, they just go for a revenue share 
with the manufacturers who is responsible to import, install, maintain etc. 
Thus the capital investment required to buy these high value equipments are not 
needed anymore. Hence forth cost implication over the charge per minute is 
altered. The benefit is transferred to common man - less than 1 US cent per 
minute. I can pick up many more examples, but those may not be contextual 
always.

2. Yes, your suggestion is implemented at different stages, the surplus are 
used to reduce the price. The price of Interconnection to exchange is reduced 
drastically, the prices of domains are reduced to the levels of 70+%.

3. Exactly you are right, Internet abhors single point failure - Lets create 
NIRs so that there is no single point of failure, at APNIC:-)

4. Control: For example, many of the ISPs still mention their central office as 
the address of entire pool of IPs. So when you look for who is, location within 
India cannot be traced. Even with traceroute applications like visualroute the 
IP will terminate at a wrong location - Security issue.
Another example, underutilisation. Since the same authority gets report on 
actual subscriber base etc of the ISPs, as ISPs are licensed operators in 
India, better distribution of resource based on subscriber base could be done.

5. The requirements/applications of the old world (Communication, transactions, 
commerce etc.,) are fulfilled better by using new technologies. There is no 
change in requirement, it all remains same. The old world remains there as is. 
We all want to talk, use old phone or new phone it's all about comfort.

Briefly about an Indian way of old/new world - In many part of the Indian 
societies, even today many will suggest to go around few temples and pray when 
a woman is not getting pregnant. People misunderstand that it is about god and 
even make jokes. In reality if you do a research (which I have done along with 
few other similar interested people), the pillars, walls, beams, ceilings 
around these temples are made with lots of sculptures of different sexual 
depictions like in kamasutra. The idea is to make people learn about these when 
there were no technology or even paper to talk teach about these. That was used 
as a training material. Even today application remains the same. Today the 
technology made the "onwall" education into "online" education. At the 
end of the day old world remains there intact.

6. I agree, Internet grew because of International cooperation. Formation of 
individual networks, and their connect to Internet were never denied. Thus 
making the world's only borderless world. However Internet is successful 
primarily because of letting it to be built in the manner what everyone wanted 
to build. It's an open world, everyone has their say/voice. There is no 
controlling body, but only managing bodies. All members of this ecosystem 
should have their representation and say. Otherwise it cannot be termed as 
cooperation. Make the NIR to have our representation and say.

7. I agree, Organisations managing ccTLDs were doing even before ICANN 
formation. But ARPANET, let the regional authorities to manage If I understand 
rightly, it was way back in 1984, when DNS system was standardised. It was 
top-down.

8. What NIR actually meant to do, from an Indian context? Instead of giving a 
direct answer, I can say if we understand the ground reality and if we are able 
to understand the human touch with technology the following (link) is what 
someone could do... be it Indian or any one. We call these as innovations. Just 
understand the ground reality when you make a 
policy/procedure/organisation/technology etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzKmGTVmqJs&feature=related (See part 2 also)

I don't think it would have been possible to make such an invention for the 
biggies of the world for just a cost of 350$. See the sequence, born in a small 
town in Gujarat, understanding the ground reality of common man (physical life) 
he invented something that the world says "wow", but he stands up to the world 
and says everything will be part of opensource. That's because he knows the 
common man better, especially of the developing and under developed countries. 
Watch the video and see how many times he refers India. That's what the 
technology can do, if the ground need is understood, more than 1.4 mA$.

APNIC might be doing already all that what NIR would do technically and 
procedurally, but it can never do many that only foot on street can do. To an 
analogy, in today's technological world, I don't see a need for Cisco opening 
up an office in India. They could have done it from their headquarters and 
distribution network. But the purpose is "Understand the ground reality (Pulse 
of the people)" and make the strategy accordingly.

Hope now many would have understood the pulse of the people. We all might use 
the virtual world for many purpose, but we live in the physical world. Its 
important to consider the needs of this physical world.

Regards,
Desi Valli

-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Smith [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 21 November 2009 03:08
To: Desi Valli
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] [Apnic-announce] Application for India NIR - Call for 
Comments

Hi Desi,

Desi Valli said the following on 20/11/09 18:17 :
>
> Cisco goes even to the level of 85% discount from their
> GLP. Impossible to listen to those numbers in westerns countries.

Do you have any references for this?

Do other vendors do the same thing?

> _Regarding Cross funding between IX/NIR_
>
> NIXI is a NPO and it is mandated that the organisation cannot carry
> profits. That implies the fact that the surplus should be better
> utilised.

If there is a surplus, it suggests that NIXI is making too much money.
Why not reduce the prices instead, given that 'Indianisation' is so
important?

> I disagree to the suggestion that things are to be separated. Internet
> is a field of convergence. No technology other than IP has enabled
> convergence in all possible areas thus improving productivity and
> optimal utilisation of resources & infrastructures. Suggesting to have
> independent operations, funding & resources of IX, registry and NIR,
> defeats many very purposes of Internet itself.

Internet also abhors single points of failure. ;-)

> _Regarding the benefits for the Indian Internet Eco-system_
>
> 1.  Financial benefits.
>
> 2.  Better control, hence better utilisation.

What will be controlled?

> 3.  Better utilisation, hence better productivity.
>
> 4.  Better productivity, hence better cost.
>
> 5.  Thus creating a cyclic effort over the financial benefits.
>
> Over and above:
>
> 1.  ITU lets individual countries to manage their numbering system

Do we want to replicate the "old world" telephony system management
processes for the Internet?

The Internet has grown by international cooperation. The RIRs manage the
distribution of address space. APNIC's existing NIRs participate in this
distribution process. The RIRs don't give /8s to each country and tell
them to get on with it.

> 2.  ICANN lets individual countries to manage their ccTLDs.

Organisations responsible for managing ccTLDs have done so long before
ICANN existed. The process is not top down as I think you are implying.

> 3.  Then what is illogical in NIR?

I worry that there is a misunderstanding in what I've read so far as to
what function an NIR is actually meant to perform.

Hopefully you can clarify. :-)

philip
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